I think Suigintou should become Alice because she has been thru a lot of pain and suffering.

Jum should. He has magic fingers.

:lol: :lol: jum...!

what i'd like to see, is shinku discover the alternate method of becoming alice... but then let suigintou have it... after overture i don't think it's exactly right for shinku to become alice (considering how much of a little bitch she was... :tongue: )...but then, i'd like to see shinku and suigintou team up to take kirakishou out too... but i doubt that will happen...

Based on order - Suigintou.

She was the first "attempt" to create an Alice so it makes sense for that to happen.
The problem for her is that Shinku is holding all the cards.

Kirakishou - Yet to find out more.
Suiseiseki - She has given up if it means hurting the others.
Kanaria - Not a major competitor.
Souseiseki - Out of action (for now).
Hinaichigo - Out of action (for now).

Barasuishou - Nice try. :lol:

Honestly, I wouldn't be so surprised if that happened.

But back on to the topic, I don't know if I'd want any of the dolls to become Alice. A nice ending IMO would be to have a new body for Alice be created, and for each of the dolls to give up their Rosa Mystica to said body to create Alice.

Nori :ph43r: because of her curious dreams about her own blood sibling :cool: :blush: ... amongst the dolls it should be Suigintou...because she IS Suigintou...arrr :arrr:

Barasuishou deserved to become Alice.

Let's look over the dolls and why they did not deserve to be Alice.

Suigintou - Took pleasure in tormenting Shinku and the others.
Souseiseki - Turned her back on her own sister.
Kirakishou - Obvious reasons.
Kanaria - Attempted to start the Alice Game, constantly played pranks on the others.

Those who did, however were defeated in combat fair and square.

Other random points:
1. Barasuishou was an expert general and plotted the entire game flawlessly.
2. Barasuishou was dedicated to her father, and only did what she felt was right.
3. The part with her breaking is insane, she had the second strongest will of any doll and fully deserved the victory at hand.

Apparently, Suigintou is the real "Alice".

Reasons:
1. She is "technically" the only one playing the game.
2. She's Rozen's "first" child, and deserves the position.
3. She's more powerful than any of the dolls (Shinku used a medium! Cheater...)
4. She desperately wants Rozen to love her.
5. She loves Rozen in return.
6. She have a Rosa Mystica.

Why Not Others?

1. Kanaria: She nearly owned the other dolls except Shinku. However, her plans always seem to fail easily.

2. Suiseiseki: She would rather "die" than killing her own precious Souseiseki and her friends.

3. Souseiseki: Likely Candidate. However, owned by Suigintou.

4. Shinku: Likely Candidate. However, too passive and occasionally considerate for friends to be wary of the "game".

5. Hina-Ichigo: (Must I explain Why?)

6. Kirakishou: Don't have a body. Don't know her potential powers yet.

7. Barasuishou: Likely Candidate. However, She's NOT created by Rozen, and does NOT have a Rosa Mystica. Furthermore, she can't even keep them in her own body.

good ponits

(Note that this post ignores both the manga's plot and spoiler warnings for the anime.)

Souseiseki's the same. Why does that disqualify her, but make Barasuishou a better candidate? Just because Barasuishou didn't have a sister? O_o

Not really. In terms of killer instinct, Barasuishou was the truest; Swiggy essentially gave her life for Shinku towards the end of Traumend.
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "technically", that is?

This one comes up a lot, but why? For inheritance, yes, she'd be first... but the Rozen dolls were built. It's the last one of a series of constructions that's likely to be the best, since an artisan will be incorporating lessons learned from previous attempts at success. So if build order is what's important, it's Kira that's the best candidate.

So did she. Swiggy had Megu, while it's uncertain if Souseiseki had a medium, so she's also open to accusations of cheating. =P
Besides, she needed Megu's power to get through Barasuishou's shield, so claiming she's the strongest of the eight is pretty dubious.


There's a different potential problem with Swiggy becoming Alice, though: Alice is supposed to be perfect, and I don't think this is a purely physical thing. Swiggy has pretty major psychological issues which she'd need to resolve first, wouldn't she?

Personally, I think Shinku's got a good chance at success. Not because of her strength or apparently being Rozen's favourite, but because of the path she's on at the end of Traumend, and because she's the main character. =P

Of course, you are correct. And that's why I say she is a "likely candidate". Her only flaws are her inability to keep the Rosa Mystica in her body, the fact that she is not created by Rozen and doesn't have a Rosa Mystica. Otherwise, she would probably be over Suigintou.

I won't dispute this point.

Back to Episode 12. When Suigintou was "owned" by Shinku, she doesn't have the help of a similar medium (Which is why I called "Cheater" =P). And of course, Souseiseki's medium relations are "unconfirmed". For getting through Barashishou's shield...she initially used it unintentionally, is it not? Her attitude was more like "Where the heck did that power came from?" instead of "Gimme power Megu! Gimme the power!"

While the last might be the best, in the case of wanting to create something, wouldn't the one you created first fit closest to your original vision? In this case, if Rozen envisioned a perfect doll, wouldn't he try to make that doll straight away? Obviously, he didn't finish, and then he moved on to make several more. I'm not going to argue that this should make Suigintou Alice, but it seems that Rozen would have tried to create his vision with his first attempt.

I think I see what you mean. It depends on how good Rozen was; if #1 came out exactly as he wanted, there'd be no mistakes to improve upon when making #2, and the first would be closest to his original plan. #2 would possibly be for some other use, or a spare or something, I guess?
But if it wasn't perfect, his original plan would need revising, and #2 would be better than #1. That's the sort of thing I was thinking of, and the reason the last would be the best is that that's the one he stopped after making.
The state he left Swiggy in while working on the others certainly doesn't suggest to me that he'd felt he succeeded (then)... though I do wonder how he intended to decide if a doll was perfect or not anyway.


However, considering the differences between the dolls, I think the vision he had for each was unique, so they'd not really be comparable in that way in any case. Rather than seven iterations getting closer to his ideal, it'd perhaps be better to think of seven individual projects (implementing different approaches), or seven parts of one greater one.

I dunno, really. Rozen's a mysterious dude, and I still get the feeling there's something dubious about the Alice Game...

Like it's just a plot device? :P

See what I dont get is why would Rozen leave Suigintou there? And then treat the others? I mean she looks nice and like everyone else why leave her?

And the Alice Game I dont understand either. Maybe he just gave up on making a "perfect" doll and decided to have everyone fight to see whos the strongest.

I agree with Suigintou07, why would Rozen be so PICKY as to leave Suigintou and carry Shinku, love her, and be so kind as to...
GIVE HER A BROOCH!!!

actually...I never showed any affection to Gin-sama in the first season, but, when she decided to change in Traumend and she was so decent in ouverture, I just had to love her.

I believe that Suigintou-sama suits as Alice the most and I'll tell you why...

2nd doll, Kanaria: She's REALLY silly
3rd doll, Suiseiseki: She doesn't want to join the Alice Game
4th doll, Souseiseki: She's out of the game
5th doll, Shinku: She just can't be. She said it herself that Alice is purer than anything and more sublime and bla bla bla. She's not like that...or so I think.
6th doll, Haina Ichigo: You know what, DUH!
7th doll, Kirakishou: Although she's abstract, she wants Gin-sama to be Alice, she obviously loves Gin more than herself.

That's it for now, I think I've made point...now, I can rest... :waving:

i agree with you 100%
plus Suigintou shows more affection towards father.
when she was left there, she still moved because of her feelings for him
that shows how strong she is

Personally I hope that all the dolls can become Alice. Something like the last scen of The Last Samurai...

They were talking about cherry blossoms then, but you get the idea...Rozen dies in the last episode with all the dolls, including those that lost, surrounding him. He looks at his handiwork and utters this line. Suddenly everyone's Rosa Mystica glows, and since they all look like shards, "repair" themselves. Then the rest of the episode can be taken up by transformation scenes in which all the ball joints become real ones and they grow taller and stuff...

...Yeah...I wished for this because Souseiseki is out of the game otherwise.

I think Shinku should be Alice, because she's well, father's favourite that's what I think lol~na no .And I think father had a feeling that Shinku was going to be Alice too~na no

Hina-chan you are too kind too say that~ :crying:

Ok seriously, if I were to chose two dolls to b'come Alice it'll be Shinku and Suigintou. They're the most eligeble ones to be Alice

I think I should become alice.

Becuase I am a pretty little girl. I have powers beyond human comprehension.

God I love FM

WTF?

I think that wasn't the point for this dicussion Shade...

what the heck does that have 2 do with the topic

The point was I should be alice becuase I could kick those dolls' asses.

To be serious though I think Suigintou since she pwns everyones ass so badly. She never truly was defeated. She was cut in half by Souseiseki when she wasn't fighting and she sacrificed herself to save Shinku. So yeah she was never truly defeated =D

I don't really want any of them to become Alice, or at least untill we learn more about Alice herself. It doesn't feel right for them to strive to become someone else. I personally think they should learn to be happy with who they are.

I like that point...You're thinking in a way I haven't been. Or rather you can think and I can't... :tongue:

Yes i agree, but still... what will happen to Rozen if they don't wan't to be alice?

Die. That's what he should do. He is, after all, some coupla hundred years old you know. It would be a good time to end his life now.

Tomoe's gonna use the Death Note to win the Alice Game.

Seriously though, if anyone's gonna be Alice it'll probably be Shinku, because she's the main character.

I'm all for the "Rosa Mysticae combine to form Alice" idea.

Although I still believe that Suigintou is most eligible for Alice at this point, I don't think the anime companies can deal with singling out one doll to become Alice. It'll make for a lot of fan reactions, such as Shinku supporters going, "zomg why wasn't Shinku made into Alice?!" and etc. Think of the rep the anime would get if it only catered to the population that supported one specific doll.

true, true...

but doesn't he like reincarnate or something like that?

I remember Shinku saying that to Jun or something

I hate the fact that Shinku's the main character of RM 'coz like that, she'll win everything!
It's so not fair~!!!

I hope p-pit won't give a predictable ending. That way, we won't have any idea who would be Alice.

But...if that happens, this topic will be gone... :(

It's never been stated what criteria you're supposed to have to be 'alice, the perfect girl'. Something tells me that being an insane general willing to do what you had to win (not what was right, unless winning at all costs is right) isn't the right criteria.

Bara breaking had nothing to do with a lack of will. Her body was not properly designed, she was not a Rozen Maiden. She couldn't handle all the Roza Mystica, she was not designed by Rozen.

For that matter, I personally believe that if, prior to Rozen's reparation of Suigintou for Traumend, that if Suigintou had of collected all the Roza Mystica, she would have broken apart too. She lacked a torso, and was a failed product of Rozen. She was able to handle ONE, yeah, when Rozen gave it to her, but that's it. When she took in Souseiseki's she was a complete doll then.

Just like Suigintou, Bara took lots of pleasure in tormenting the dolls. However, Suigintou changed, and later did not fight for that reason. Bara didn't. She was gleeful up until the end.

Souseiseki did not turn her back on Suiseiseki. Er, at least not in the anime anyway (haven't read manga, I know it's different). She pretended to be about to kill her, and then went after Suigintou. Sou could have killed Sui liked asked, gotten her mystica, and they could have been together, killed Suigintou, then Barasuishou, and have easily become Alice. Although, I'm not sure if they'd be willing to take out Shinku/Kanaria/Hina, it's a bit iffy. Actually, when they killed Bara they'd be all "wtf where's the Roza mystica? what's this, a 'Frank Mystica'?"

Kanaria tried to start the Alice Game? Lol. Bara was trying to start it. Kanaria was just playing games and never had any serious dedication about killing anyone. She would never have gone through with it.

Everyone's technically playing the game so long as they defend themselves against Suigintou. Delaying battle doesn't mean you're not in the game.

I don't understand why Suigintou is considered the first Rozen Maiden. To me, the first should be Kanaria. She was the first complete doll, and the first to receive a Roza Mystica, and probably the first one to wake up too. Lots of other dolls were thrown in the trash, so why does Suigintou count? What I don't understand at all is this... no one knew Suigintou was alive, right? No one had met her. So how did they know that there was a 'first' doll? Where'd they get the idea from? They never met Rozen after all... did LaPlace tell them which number they were?

Shinku and Suigintou are matched, both with and without mediums. Yeah, in ep 3 it looked like Sui spared Shink but really, she was just surprised and thrown off guard. Remember, she had only fought Suiginto once before (Traumend battle) and she didn't have the ability to shield herself or create the blue fire then. The times when Shinku needed help from Jun (ep 6 battle) were when Suigintou lured her into her own dreamworld. Dolls are more powerful in their own dreams, and have a home field advantage. First she did it be kidnapping Hina...

Then Shinku actually challenged Suigintou in her own domain, and was holding even with her despite her having that advantage and surprise-attacking her with her dolls. What weakened Shinku was that Suigintou was torturing Jun in his own dreams. You can tell by how the ring glowed a different colour that it was going in reverse. Instead of Jun sending his strength to Shinku, she was suffering like he was. This weakened, or at least distracted her, enough for Suigintou to get her. Shinku wasn't getting any power from Jun there.

Furthermore, when they both went into Jun's dream, for the first part of the fight Shinku wasn't drawing any power from Jun, although she had Souseiseki to help her out...

I just realized something really weird here. The anime seems to have screwed up something. In 9 (the cage) Suigintou took Renpika from Souseiseki, but when they exit the dream, Souseiseki jumps at Suigintou using the Shears... even though he doesn't have Renpika.

Then, because Renpika (which is a NUKE, stop calling artificial spirits weak guys, I wonder why Sou never used it like that, is Suigin better with it?) is about to kill Jun, Sui gives Sui amethyst dream.

Which, okay, the shears/watering can and the sprites are obviously divided then. Different, right? So that would explain why Souseiseki is able to use the shears to help Shinku fight in the final episode, and why Suiseiseki still has her watering can. They use the spirits to summon them, but can still keep them even without their spirits.

But without the spirits to summon them, where exactly are the shears/watercan hiding when they're not using them? I didn't see them holding them when they knocked out Jun's sister Nori... I'm guessing they used Hina's artificial spirit to enter her dream, and then Hina went alone to Suigintou's world to save Shinku.

They end up meeting up in Jun's world having found another way in with Nori, and still don't have the watering can and scissors out, and don't have their spirits to summon them with. Suddenly BAM Sousei is thrusting with the scissors.

Suisei is filling up water from a river. In the very least this is right, she needs the spirit to summon 'sweet water' and can't do that. But even normal water will help Jun's tree.

While Suigintou presses her attack on the wounded Shinku (with Jun guarding) she is probably unable to keep her attention on keeping the 2 artificial spirits belonging to the gardeners under her control. They summon them and their weapons appear...

Umm.. okay maybe Sousei's got knocked away, Suiseiseki DEFINATELY already had her watering can so why did she not have it and have her spirit summon it for her all of a sudden? It's really weird! So now I'm going to shut up, lol.

Back to Shinku versus Suigintou: the only truly unfair battle was the final one. Suigintou had lost a wing fighting Sui/Sou/Hina (she used all the feathers in that wing in a kamikaze attack), they were in Jun's dream (no home field advantage for her, advantage for Jun and those he empowers, now that he's back to himself) and he sews Shinku's arm back on (he's a 'maestro' like Rozen, and apparently not his apprentice, they never followed up on the 'maestro' thing though) and shields her.

Heck, Shinku uses Holie in the fight, and Suigintou doesn't even use MeiMei. Talk about unfair, although... maybe it's her own fault for overlooking one of her assets and relying on her feathers. I mean, MeiMei wasn't destroyed when it fought Holie right?

But, that means Shinku just keeps on relying on her artificial spirit. Swig is just trying to be independant, besides, Mei Mei acts by her own free will and Swig lets her 'coz she trusts Mei Mei. I really pity Holie coz she has to follow his/her master everyday though you don't see him/her in every episode of the story.

Which brings up a question, does the artificial spirit have gender(s)?
Or are they like any dead thing/ non-living thing which doesn't make them have gender. BUt, if they're a non-living thing, how can they move and fly and roam around anywhere they want?

Weird...

those are some good ideas but i still think Suigintou should have been alice.
If not then no one..maybe

the Manga explains SO MUCH even if Bara isn't in it.. ^^ first

in order wise of how i see should be alice
and why they can't


Suigintou- she is the most dedicated, and most indapendent. she takes most of what she can to at any costs to make herself the victer. but, her love can be used a little to extently, it causes her obsession to send her into spiraling mood swings that cause havic from the get go. her feathers are a good weapon even in tight spots

Kanaria- she loves father and all of her sisters, and always tries to please even if she isn't needed. but, her ego gets the best of her all the time and it makes her appear arragent and foolish, which kind of makes it hard for her to focus. her Violin is WAY to fragile and if she looses that then she is useless

Suiseiseki- she is dead set determined on becoming alice, and she is dedicated souly to her sister, she is fot head on first glance but she is sweet at heart. she always means well. but, if the Alice Game fell between her and her sister, then the game may never finish, they would not harm the other unless preasured too. her soft heartedness wouldn't allow her to fight. her water can can be filled with even ordinary water making her convienent even if she doesn't have Jade/Amethyst Dream.

Souseiseki- she is a little on the modest side and is way to use to covering for Suiseiseki, which makes her always stuck in someway in her antics. her abilities show in her fighting. but, she has the same reasons as her sister. if it came to them Sou wouldn't hesitate to harm her if it was up to them. her scissers are a good defence and offence making her all around good

Shinku- she is,sadly, father's favorite. and the main charater. of course that may be her only reason. her only thing keeping her going is her love for them all as there own Alice inside. but, she is logic based, which nearly took her to her end. in the Manga, kirakishou almost killed her because of her trying to protect Suisei. she is favrited by Rozen, cutting the others off. in short father choses favorites. her petals are weak but her ohysical attacks are quit strong.


HIna Ichigo- she fights for Jun and Tomoe ( or Corrine) she is only fighting for them, other wise she would cast the game away and live with the maidens happily. but, she is childish and hasn't mentally matured enough making her a first target by everyone of the top player of the game. her Vines arn't very strong, but gaining mystica may change this.

Kirakishou- she is quite litterally insane. she doesn't play for father, she does for Suigintou, sho she finds a strange obsession with. her tactics make out to be flawless in the end, but don't always work as she wants. but, her obsession lead to the death of Hina-Ichigo, she killed her for her mystica to enter the human world, just to meet Suig. she even offered her own Mystica to Suig. her rose vines are possibly used for whips and her killed instant death is when she kisses her victum. it inplants a seed into her victum where rose vines will grow out of the body and destroy it violently.

Barasuishou- she is nearly flawless in every way. she is cunning and shows no affection for her "sisters". she actually played the game how it was ment to be. all of her hard work was there. it all went smoothly. but, she isn't a rozen maiden, she is a copy of Kirakishou's plans that were stolen. thus why she entered the game late. se can't hold all of her mystica in her, showing in the end when she breaks into pieces. her eyepatch actually held away her emotion from being there at all, making her seem lifeless. she is Ofensive wise, the most powerful maiden. her atacks with either a crystal sword or pillers of Crystal make her hard to deal with

^^ this is all my observation that i found in the manga and the anime ^^

Personally I think that Souseiseki is a good candidate for becoming alice.

After all she did show a great amount of dedication towards father even though she was tricked. She is one of the few dolls actually willing to participate in the alice game.

Suigintou couldn't become alice because she gave up on it to try to help out her medium Megu.

Kanaria-she's too "smart" to become alice.

Suiseiseki-She'd rather stick with her sisters and have fun then become alice.

Shinku-She might have a chance being the main character and all.

Hana-Ichigo - she's like suiseiseki, but she isn't mischievous.

Barasishou- She's not even a rozen maiden.

Kirakishou- don't know much about her, except that she can only exist in the N-field.

Suigintou, because she has put in much effort into it.

Why i did not choose the others.

Kanaria- ... Just try not to die.
HinaIchigo- DECEASED
Souseiseki- DECEASED
Suiseiseki- Desu. LOL JK. Shes just not fit to be alice. =[ Sry suiseiseki!
Shinku- Boring. Go away. Too pretty. Not enough beauty. :)
Kirakishou- .. You look fitting to be Alice but u ate poor hina! >:O UNFORGIVABLE! DIVINE PUNISHMENT!!!
Barasuisho- Go away. Too scary.

lol
Bara-to scary go away
thats funny

Note that Kia is already Alice

I read in a mag that Rozen created Kira PURPOSELY with out a body because he said that Alice is ABSTRACT so she doesnt hv a body or a mystica

(which eliminates the fact that artificial spirits are a part of their rm because if they are then Sufi shouldn't exist because Kira PRESUMABLY HAS NO ROSA MYSTICA)