So, I'm rewatching RM series and I noticed how weird is Suigintou's behaviour. She seems to toy with all other dolls except Shinku.
It's weird, it looks like she's obsessed with getting Shinku's Rosa Mystica, but doesn't really want to become Alice.
She has a lot of occasions to kill other dolls, but she's just vicious toward them instead of finishing them off, getting their Rosa Mystica's and becoming closer to Alice.
What's the deal with her - Plot Induced Stupidity or some deeper motives?

Have you seen Ouvertuere? That could explain it.

I've seen it. It explains why she hates Shinku. On the other hand, it makes me wonder why she didn't kill Souseiseki on sight.
Also, it shows that she feels incomplete and that she's desperate to become Alice and meet the father.
She doesn't really act like she wants to be Alice.

I think she's just a little sadistic. What fun is an easy victory, after all?
She keeps on saying that'll she'll turn Shinku into junk, so perhaps she is looking to do that in every possible aspect? Slow torment will break her spirit, and then she can break her, turning her into junk in every sense of the word. I think that makes a sort of sense, judging by her actions in the finale of the first season, when she tore her arm off. Why do it in that fashion? She could have done that to her head, if she'd wanted to. That she took her time suggests she wanted to break Shinku's spirit, and it certainly worked for a time.

I don't think she REALLY wants to become Alice, its just the easiest way to exact her revenge, because she'll be depriving Shinku and the others of the privelege.

I doubt that makes any sense, but...eh, I'm always looking into villain's actions, because they are the most interesting characters in any anime.

She didn't seem to have any objections in episode 6. After all, she tried to simply kill Shinku when the junk immobilized her.

Wouldn't killing off Shinku's friends be a better way to break Shinku's spirit (and gain more power) than doing vicious pranks?
All she was doing was leading to situations where she confronted with all the dolls at the same time.

She could simply kill Hinaichigo and Suiseiseki and Jun and then kill Shinku. (Actually, she started pretty good, but for some reason her clown/bear didn't really do anything to Jun beyond being menacing.)
She could have captured weakened Shinku and then turn her into junk. For example tear all her limbs off and then have a nice chat with her :wub: . *giggles*

It was said that Suigintou lovest the father the most of all Rozen Maidens (probably Souseiseki is the second). She seemed to pretty angry when she discovered that Shinku have spared Hinaichigo.
Ironically, the only time she actually kills another Rozen Maiden is after she gave up her quest to become Alice.

The main problem with villains is that they are bound to lose. They simply don't have any chances. They have to be ineffective to allow heroes to win.

She DID give Shinku the choice first to hand over her Rosa Mystica before she decided to kill her, though. And there wasn't much more that could be said after that.

Killing Shinku's friends would be more likely to enrage her, and it did, as she went completely mental after Suiseiseki and Kanaria were killed in the finale of Traumend.
More specifically, confronting Shinku. I don't think she gives the slightest damn about the other dolls. They're just lesser pieces in the game she plays with Shinku. If I had to guess why she kept forcing a confrontation, I'd say to exploit Shinku's guilt about what happened to her, which, whilst not strictly her fault, she does feel guilty about.

You know, I actually doubt the truth of that. After all, it is because of father that Suigintou was left incomplete, as he erased part of her design...why would she love a man who created her and then discarded her like that? I wouldn't call it love, despite what has been said, I'd call it obsession. She wants to meet father, to become Alice, etc etc, but I think that for her its just to prove to everyone that she can, that they're wrong about her, she isn't junk, she is in fact better than all of them. That'd be her inferiority/superiority complex at work.
Perhaps after father fixed her, she'd show a little love for him, but she formed a bond with Megu shortly after, and father takes a backseat, so either way, he evidently doesn't matter as much to her.
I think she was outraged with Shinku's behaviour concerning Hina-Ichigo because of the way Shinku treated her in the Ouverture. After all, even though it was technically Souseiseki's fault she was cut in half, considering she was the one who did it, Shinku didn't lift a finger to help her, despite her pleas. Yet she spares Hina-Ichigo, even going so far as to offer her the energy to continue moving. That must really sting.
Well, we could put that down to vengeance for past misdeeds. Plus, Souseiseki did charge in and try to slice her into pieces again. What was she supposed to do? Stand there and let her do it again? :P

Indeed. Regardless of their motives and character - which are almost always infinitely more complex and believable than the heroes - they always wind up losing. Its so unbelievably unrealistic...but it IS anime, I suppose.
If things were allowed to play out, I have no doubt that Suigintou would wipe the floor with all of them eventually. Souseiseki was probably the most dangerous opponent to her, and she took care of her quite quickly. Shinku has proven that she is more than powerful enough to take her on, but she has a fatal flaw - her conscience. She couldn't kill Barasuishou, and she had a crystal stuck through her for her weakness. Or her strength, depending on your viewpoint. But I don't think she would be able to kill Suigintou, regardless of what she had done beforehand, and Suigintou doesn't have a shred of mercy in her.

Well, she could as well give her a choice to impale herself on her sword.

I doubt that enraged Shinku without a medium would be able to threaten Suigintou with 2 additional Rosa Mysticas. After all, the point of taking Rosa Mysticas is becoming more powerful and closer to Alice. Other dolls may be unimportant as people but may be useful as a food. Also, Suigintou already "tried" killing Jun.

It's worth remembering that it was her love for the father that gave her life without Rosa Mystica and that she was searching for him before she met Shinku.
Also, Rozen gave her Rosa Mystica after she was "killed" by Souseiseki, so she has some reasons to love him. I think that her inferiority/superiority complex comes from her interactions with other dolls, rather than from her relationship with her father. After all, Shinku didn't want to recognize her as a Rozen Maiden and Souseiseki just cut her in two on sight :sad: .

Death changes people :P .

Well, Shinku didn't even treat her as a Rozen Maiden back then, so I doubt it could be the reason. I think that it's more because Shinku befriended the other dolls and acted like she didn't want to become Alice, while the only thing that Suigintou had was a perspective of becoming Alice and reuniting with the father again.

I think that she simply had a noble motivation that would justify allowing her to win one time :P .

Other dolls are pretty complex too. And Ouvertüre shows that it's debatable whenever some of them are really as good as they seem to be in previous series. I guess, one could make anime series where villains aren't better than heroes. Or an anime where a villain is a protagonist :happy: .

I think that the main problem with Suigintou was that she wasn't allowed to fight with full strength. Not only she's very powerful, but she knows a lot of tricks - she can use a mirror for scrying, she can use mirrors show visions to people, she can do things to mediums, she can enter Jun's house whenever she wants, she can send out animated toys armed with deadly weapons. Basically, she has powers that allow her to attack without warning and without giving the enemy any chance to defend themselves, but she doesn't use them to achieve victory.

In vol.7 Kirakishou said Suigintou don't love her father, she wanted to say Suigintou hate Rozen and who knows why she want to become Alice... i think in anime is the same thing °-°

Hmm...
That's interesting. Then maybe she wants to become Alice just to become the most powerful Rozen Maiden and get revenge on Rozen?

I think she so desperately wants to feel loved by Father that it drives her crazy.

And I deep down think that Suigintou still has (NON-ROMANTIC!!!) feelings for Shinku, especially with all the times Shinku has said things like, "Thank goodness you're okay!!!" or "I should have never called you junk..." etc. And Shinku cares about Suigintou too.

By the end of Traumend, it's obvious that she wants the Rosa Mystica to save Megu rather than to become Alice, which mean she's grown to care about someone other than Father...

But all I can really say is, WE FREAKIN NEED A SEASON THREE, !@#$%^&* IT.

I'm not sure if manga and anime are the same series any more.
For example, I can't really see things from Ouvertüre happening in manga universe as Suigintou isn't incomplete there.

I have the same impression. Also, she doesn't really have anyone else until she meets Megu.

I think that it was the moment when the real Alice Game has ended for Suigintou. She lost her main motivation to kill Shinku and it turned out that there's a possibility of having some better relations with her sisters.

It's interesting that she's still willing to kill all her sisters just to save one girl. She's still interested in fixing someone broken at all cost. I don't think it's a big change.
I wouldn't be surprised if it would turn out that it's impossible to heal Megu and that Bara-Bara lied to her to stop her from reconciling with her sisters.

Yeah, Barasuishou would do that kind of thing (at least, if her dearest Father told her to, anyway!)

A little off topic, but does anyone get the feeling that Barasuishou, if revived and taken away from Enju, would be a very cute addition to Jun's doll harem collection? XD

Hah :glare: .
It's possible that Suigintou fell for one of her own tricks XD . Actually, now I wonder why she believed her.

I never liked Barasuishou. She seemed to be the least human and most evil of all dolls. Also, she looks creepy.

On topic: I watched the episode 9 of the first series today and caught myself thinking: "What are you doing!? Just kill them already!" >.<
What did she need the Sui Dream and Lempicka for? And what was the reason for all her actions? Did she want to collect artificial spirits, or what?

she want to kill Jun
in manga she spoke with Souseiseki and she said she want to kill Jun, so it can be the same in the anime...she want break Jun's soul, so she used Sui Dream and Renpika to immobilize Jun in his dream and to destroy him...she thinks Jun is Shinku's power

i hope you understand...°°''

:huh:
Wouldn't stabbing him to death be more effective? Or actually killing him with Renpika?
Hey, but it made a good job on making her look powerful and menacing when I watched the series for the first time and I was too busy being concerned about Jun and Shinku and Suiseiseki to think tactically XD .

That's because Bara-Suishou isn't a Rozen Maiden, but actually created by Enju to destroy the Rozen Maiden. But because Enju was only the apprentice, he apparently lacked the skill to give her any personality (beyond the single-minded killer), in addition to not being able to become Alice.

I dunno, I thought Bara had her cute moments (mostly in the drama CDs). :> It's mostly just that she's fanatically devoted to Enju, which is why she does "bad" things, because she thinks she's just obeying him.

And on the subject of Lenpica/Sui Dream, Suigintou never specified that it was Jun she wanted to kill... just that there was "someone" she wanted to kill. Who knows? Maybe it's Father. o_o;

Well, why not? She is extremely sadistic, after all.

Hm, I'm not so sure about that. Shinku had a lot of trouble taking down Barasuishou, and she had a medium, and Barasuishou wasn't even a Rozen Maiden.
I don't think she was serious about killing Jun...he was absolutely no threat at the time. I'd say that was Shinku tricking Jun into becoming her medium, because she didn't have sufficient power without him. I expect the only reason she would kill Jun would be to make sure he wasn't a threat before she turned her attention to Shinku, but it would have made more sense to kill Shinku first and THEN turn her attention to Jun, to eliminate any witnesses.
I'd say the only reason he was attacked was to stop him from opening the door. It was after he became Shinku's medium - which, by the way, she could easily have stopped theoretically, because it took him a while to agree, long enough for that clown to drive a card or a knife into his neck - that it started attacking seriously with the knives.

Fair point. Although her love for father at that time can be put down to not wanting to be abandoned by the only person she knew of, so is that really love? I'd say not, but perhaps we'd better not get caught up in a philosophical debate about what love is :P .
She might have had more of a reason to love father after he gave her a Rosa Mystica though, but he still left her incomplete after that, for whatever reason, but I don't see how she could love him for that. I would still regard her relationship with father as one of obsession.
I'd say her inferiority complex is down to a mix of everything. On one hand, father has revived her twice, which does show a certain level of affection, but on the other, he didn't finish her until the second time, which would suggest to me at least that he doesn't really care about her and is reviving her frequently perhaps to punish Shinku for the way she treated her, or something like that. I doubt she would feel quite so inferior to the other dolls if she had been finished. I would place the blame with father for making her feel inferior to the others, mostly. Part of it would be due to Shinku, for refusing to recognize her as a Rozen Maiden, though. Those two are mostly responsible. Souseiseki just served to bring everything out in the open by slicing her in half. If she hadn't of done that, I doubt she would have grown to hate Shinku.

All the more reason to hate her, surely. She regards Hina-Ichigo as inferior, yet Shinku treated her better than how Suigintou herself had been treated, and even though Shinku didn't want to recognize it, she was still a Rozen maiden as well.
Perhaps, although if Shinku doesn't want to become Alice, then how else is Suigintou going to get to her? She definetely wants to make Shinku suffer, and depriving her of the right to become Alice would be the best way to do it - that is what they were created for, after all.

Plus, having Souseiseki kill her AGAIN would be a little bit farfetched, considering the ease at which she fought Souseiseki, Hina-Ichigo and Suiseiseki at once in the finale of the first season. It would make even less sense due to the fact that Suigintou had a Medium to draw strength from this time as well. She did have a noble motivation, which I supposed justified it from a writer's perspective, but, from the same perspective, there couldn't really be any other believable outcome.

Well, good and evil are perspectives, not absolutes. One could regard Suigintou as a protagonist just as easily as they could an antagonist, even though she isn't portrayed that way. There is always more than one side to the story.
Well, there wouldn't be much point to such a series, it'd last one episode. Hero kills failing villain. Order restored. They need to provide a challenge, or there is no storyline. XD;
I like the idea of a villain being the protagonist...Alucard in Hellsing comes pretty close to that. I'm also writing a book with the villain as the protagonist...they're just so much more interesting, because they're more believable. Things like altruism, kindess, love and all those things that are present in a hero are simply unbelievable, because they go against human nature. Villains are more appealing because they don't try to deny their true nature. At least, that is how I view things :happy:

Agreed. But that would sacrifice the story and make it quite a bloodbath, so even if it was more realistic than the story itself - which I think it is - there would never be that kind of thing happening, save for those ""What If?" scenarios that are occasionally done to shake up the common perspective a little. XD

I too suspect that that she tricked him. Or maybe Suigintou didn't try to kill Jun, but to scare him away from becoming a Shinku's medium. Of course Shinku told him that he's going to die if he won't obey and the plan didn't work.

I think that he didn't fix her because being incomplete provided her more motivation to try to become Alice by any means necessary (she would long for perfection as much as he longed for a perfect doll) - he probably already saw that dolls started to befriend each other - for example Shinku and Suiseiseki - not to mention Suiseiseki refusing to fight.
I suspect that he fixed her only because everyone got fed up with the Alice Game and it stopped working - all surviving dolls refused to continue fight and Suigintou wanted to fix Megu because she felt incomplete too.

Well, she certainly did a great job in cutting Suigintou off from other dolls. It's hard to imagine that she would trust them again or treat them as equals when one of them tried to kill her when she was completely defenceless.

Yeah, also Souseiseki had to die because of how she treated her twin sister. Not to mention the Ouvertüre...
Also, it would be a bit awkward if Souseiseki would be killed by Shinku or other "good" Rozen Maiden.

It's hard to regard a character as a protagonist, when she's arbitrarily set to lose.

Well, police dramas are pretty good in creating believable failing villains and keeping the series going at the same time. Also, a weak villain doesn't have to be defeated fast. The main difference is realism, not power.
For example:
Good Imperial Stormtroopers fighting Evil Cunning Rebel Terrorists and winning (or not) with some losses - good.
Good Rebels fighting Evil Imperial Stormtroopers and winning because of Imperial Stormtrooper School of Marksmanship and general incompetence of supposedly elite units - bad.

I don't think they go against human nature. Actually, they are pretty common, just not in extreme amounts. If they were against human nature, humanity would have died out long time ago.
On the other hand, the things that define heroes - courage, might, honour are pretty rare.

But what is their true nature? Is Suigintou from Ouvertüre any less true than Suigintou from the first series?

Ah, the eternal struggle between drama and realism*giggles*...

And fanfiction, of course :D .