So...in the recent concert thread the topic came up about some of Mana's use of Tarot symbolism. I went back and found it in the Nocturnal Opera cd liner.

On the page withthe lyrics to Monophobia is the Tower key opposite Mana hooded with a astrological layout with the Tower key (ill dignified) at the center.

The next Tarot card presented is interesting. I don't recognize this deck but it looks like an old french one. But the card sayd XI (11) and the image looks more like the Lovers (which is key VI/6). Key XI ought to be Justice or in some cases Strength. This is interesting partly because all those cards deal with the concept of duality, so if it was Mana who changed the card numbering, I'm certain he did it for a reason. (just like he says the fact that Dixanadu's songs in the liner are NOT in the order of the cd has a meaning) The faux Key XI is paired with the song Vizard (which might mean "seer") and an image of a feminine Mana draped forlornly over an empty chair. The next page has no card but has the other Mana sitting in the same chair. The affect is a kind of separated duality.

The next page is the Prophet with an altered Wheel of Fortune, key 10/X At the center of the card Mana has put in the decagram logo.

Finally on the last page is the Mana as Death card, key XIII/13
Yes, the Death card is about transformation and sometimes the death of the ego. And while it is true that 13 is only "unlucky" in Western, numerologically it adds to 4 (1+ 3 =4) which in Asian cultures is also associated with death, so I think Mana finds that kind of interconnected meaning interesting.

What I want to know is what deck this is and why he has the Lovers appearing in place of Justice? I'm sure the answer is in the songs, so now I will go discuss the translations with my fiance. I'll be back...

Here is something that might be the area of change in both MDM and Mana himself.

Since Nocturnal Opera what has he not done?

Shown up in his "feminine" self. I mean the overtly female persona we all know, and I am sure most love. There is a feminine character in the artwork of Dixandu, but towering, menacingly over it (not certain if the figure in white is indeed a feminine character), is the black "evil" looking Mana with claws and all, and is masked.

The mask in the artwork is never mentioned in the lyrics of Dixanadu.

So perhaps this might be the Death, or change.

Nah, there is so much more to this story he is telling.

There is also duality strewn through Dixanadu. The angels and demons mentioned dancing, and other stuff like that.

Nah, there is so much more to this story he is telling.

I like how he described the music as his soul screaming. Geeze, I don't think I would mind my soul screaming like that :)

Gads he is such a trip. The world is definitely made more endurable with artists like him gracing its surface.


:dix:

Oh wow, I just saw I have acquired an I, in dix. Weee haa.

ah, Dixanadu...yes, well, look at the cover: white and red roses, this is very similar to the base of the traditional Magician card, though that is white lilies with red roses.

While the pillars and lake are suggestive of the Star. And the Moon shows up with Xanadu.

I think the figure in white bound by white roses is meant to be from his prince look, so not the girly persona, no...but yes, still duality.

However, I think his concert costume suggests the old wedding dress motifs he was so fond of at the end of MM, but moderated by his EGA. So, perhaps it refers to unity?

edit: Joe just re-translated the lyrics for the Prophet and I think I know now why the lovers appear where Justice ought to be. He wants to work on it more so I will wait for him to be satisfied with his remarks before sharing them. :)

Oh my god!! More duality.

The decagram, or ten pointed star.

Look at this info.

http://wikicompany.org/wiki/911:Occult_symbolism_III

What got me was the one with man represented by the upright pentagram, and the devil by the inverted pentegram.

When put back to back, wallah! The symbol in MDM logo.

Yes, a 10 pointed star CAN be made from two pentagrams, but because of the interlocking pattern of it, I doubt that is his intended meaning.

If it did suggest that, it would be suggestive only of the same idea as the baphomet usage, or templar symbolism meaning the union of heaven and earth. There are places in his lyrics where he suggests that kind of connection.

However, it is far more likely that the decagram is alluding to those occult symbols centered in the number ten. Malkuth on the Tree of Life is represented by a decagram, for instance. Pythagorean mysticism also suggests the idea that 10 indicates perfection.


Oh! K said at the forum that he wanted to "unravel the mysteries of the US dollar bill and it's symbolism" and he held up his hands to suggest a pyramid.

ok, so I wanted to understand why the Wheel of Fortune would appear with the Prophet.

The song is mostly in English but the liner notes have Japanese subtitles to explain the English.

So, I had my fiance look at the Japanese explanation to get some insights. He's still looking but one interesting part:

盲目なる者に　ひかり希望は届かない
[The Light {of Hope} does not reach those who are blind ]

蜘蛛の糸に　導かれて
[They are led to the silken thread of a spider] [Note by Joe: this is an oblique reference to the JP expression “mawata de kubi wo shimeru – i.e., to “lead one around by a silken thread.” It suggests skillful, subtle manipulation. Also to the Akutagawa Ryunyosuke story of the “Spider’s Thread” – the frail thread that delivers one from Hell]


So, it seems that the song is about reincarnation with one's soulmate. That certainly suggests the Wheel of Fortune. Since I think Vizard is a similar song, I think that might also explain why he would place the Lovers (mentioned repeatedly in the Prophet) on the number 11 card which ought to be Justice.

I am sure you are aware of the multitudes of Pagan, masonic, or occult, symbols that are built into many american cities, not the least of which being Washington DC.

The symbols on the American dollar should make fake preachers like Pat Robertson want to keep away from him, seeing as there are those Pagan symbols all over it.

For once Mana has nothing on a group, and that is the US government. Hell they have inverted pentegrams for Medals of Honor!

ah well...interesting lump of descriptions. It is true that many of the Founding Fathers were Freemasons. But that is not a religion, nor is it pagan. A great deal of our government, including architecture is based on the classical Greece. While that period of Greek history is pagan, I doubt the use of Greek symbolism and aesthetics indicates pagan affiliations or an actual inclination to worship Zeus et al. and more likely an appreciation for the role of classical Greek culture as the perceived cradle of civilization.

As for occult symbolism....well, many philosophical traditions have certain portions of their teachings occulted, or hidden so that the true teaching is passed in an initiatory fashion. There is nothing sinister about the occult meanings behind the symbolism of US government trappings, though I can't say the same for the government itself!

As far as star symbolism goes....most stars are used by many traditions in a multitude of ways. A pentagram actually has no "right side up" as it is equal all the way around. And it is really fairly modern to identify the downward pointing pentagram with the shape of a goat's head.

Indeed. The Greek inspired architecture is called Neo-Classicism and was created in reaction against Rococo. This architectural style has been used mainly (but not exclusively) for banks and governmental buildings for it denotes strength, stability and solidity with its "pure" lines and strong columns. In no was was it intended as a symbol of paganism (even though in the 1850's it has been rejected as "pagan" by the Catholic church which turned to Neo-Gothic instead).

Let me clarify just in case it gets missed.

I have no problem with the architecture or design of our cities, the use of "inverted" five pointed stars for medals of valor, or anything like that.

What I am surprised by is the lack of uproar from the likes of Fred Phelps, or Pat Robertson, and their ilk.

I rather like the pentagram that surrounds the pentagon. Or the symbol of Osiris (the owl god of Egyptian lore), formed by how the streets intersect.

I have heard the all seeing eye however is indeed a Masonic symbol, as are twin towers, which are more common than realized in many American cities.

of course hon :) I wasn't suggesting that *you* had a problem with the symbolic usage, I was just pointing out that most conservatives don't personally associate those symbols with paganism per se and as such, that is why they seem to slip in under the radar.

I do agree that if most people realized the origins of many standard american icons, they might be surprised ;) I also think that people who might balk at paganism that exists concurrently with christianity will "forgive" the truly pre-christian cultures for their paganism. I think that is kind of arrogant, but still it seems to be a typical american sentiment with regards to historical cultures. As such, classical Greece, Rome and Egypt are sort of "allowed" to be pagan. (even to people who would find neo-paganism to be "sinful" or "satanic")

But to bring this back to somewhere in the vicinity of the topic :K: , I think that being Japanese, it is natural for K to be intrigued by that seeming religious schizophrenia. Just as I think that much of Mana's interest in Western Mystery Traditions stems from his interest in European history and culture as much as an interest in the actual spiritual principles involved. Mana's thinking about even things like Tarot is going to be influenced by the way the Japanese are about religion as opposed to how americans tend to be. Which is to say that there is less feeling of threat in exploring diverse religious symbolism as the Japanese regularly synthesize several religions into their cultural identity as it is.

Oh my god, something just struck me.

The Artwork (photos) in Shadows Temple single. in the band picture Mana appears twice. He is the foremost character, and in the back he is there...holding a violin, in much the same pose as he held in the artwork for Beast of Blood and in a more ornate, or "feminine" gown. Though his hair and face are the current Mana, minus the dix. There are those that think this is Mana standing in for Shadow x ( I am one of them), but also this might be the whole duality thing going on.

Also, as far as Shadow x is concerned, on the back of Nocturnal Opera, Mana appears twice, but the second appearance is only partly visible, it really is only his shoulder, and arm, as well as a relatively smooth hair do, no spikes.

This kinda thing (the two appearances of Mana in band photos) seemed to have stopped after Nocturnal opera.

When was Rococo popular? I'm not so keen with the history of architecture. But I want to know more...

Did you get to see the same places from the DVD when you were in Paris Lu-chan? I think that would be so enlightening, really getting to experience European history in the architecture. So wondrous!

Rococo was popular 18th Century, mainly in France.
It was a lighter version of Italian Baroque...
Its such a small off shoot though, and like Lu said, Neo-classicism came along and kinda blew it out grossly from architectura/artisticl history.

Personally I can't stand it.

I was watching an older segment of the decagram and I noticed there's a part where it is lit up with like flame that sort of traces of the design.

It moved counterclockwise or widdershins. The decagram is a banishing symbol!

Since he places the decagram on the Wheel of Fortune, which is about the negative effects of Karma and the wheel of rebirth (this interpretation is likely for Mana in particular as being Japanese means he would be exposed to a kind of Buddhist way of thinking even if he is not a practising Buddhist)

To banish the decagram would be to symbolize the use of the physical world and it's illusion of limitation, especially concerning those limitations most centered on perpetuating the cycle of rebirth (ie. gender constructs and or duality) to attain enlightenment or freedom to move within or without those expressions.

I doubt this is an accident...

ps- the effect is essentially the same as when a Christian makes the sign of the cross...the idea is to protect and chase away negative influence.

I think I am getting what you are saying, but not fully certain.

Is he dealing with tossing aside the limitations of the physical world, or something along those lines.

That the decagram is a symbol of the physical. (this is an area of confusion for me when it comes to your interpretation)

Which "older" version of the Decagram are you refereing to? The one on Dix Inferno? In my pondering thread that is kinda what I was leaning toward when it came to the symbol.

Interesting for sure.

ah, well...the thing I was watching was a video clip in a fan video, so I'm not sure where that comes from.

Yes, the decagram is connected to symbols of the physical world (like pythagorean stuff and Malkuth, etc) but to use a dispelling or banishing direction means like to undo what the symbol means. almost like using an eraser to go back over it.

Like there are symbols for certain elements and you use the calling or invoking version for when you want to have that element present but when you thank it and release it you use the banishing form. Generally counterclockwise for anything is banishing, it related to the meaning of left, left-handedness, and moving to the left. (but not LHP)

Interesting.
Very fascinating.
makes him that much more an artist, possibly using symbology like that.
With my upbringing and back round I may never have noticed that.

Sorry if this thread is old,but i started to read it yesterday,and i found it very interesting^^

Back to the topic, have someone noticed that the picture at the back of the Nocturnal Opera CD and the picture in the booklet is not the same? Dunno,maybe that doesn't make sense,I just wonder why:P

At the picture of the shadow temple single, Mana holding a violin with one of his hands,he holding the other hand next to him.
Maybe it's wrong, but it looks like the bow is on the violin? It's just look kind of strange x)

sorry if my english sucks btw

oh yeah, huh? The positioning is different...

Like inside it suggests himself in a portrait, yet in front of it. Hmm....